D0619 T1325 Y2006READERS POLL: "Extremely Poor Sportsmanship..."

Gather round. Bring your opinion. This is a Tied the Leader Readers’ Poll. That means that this post in incomplete without your comments, Constant Reader. I am taking role call and looking for a consensus among the geeks. Stroking your chin whiskers and murmuring “Hmmmmmmmmmm” is not enough on this day…

The topic of the day deals with Controversy. Any gamer who is serious about their craft is going to get hit by Controversy sooner or later, like a round of hot lead from the barrel of an S2 AM. Controversy will find you; either in the form of a scorned opponent screaming at you in a post game lobby, or a flame-war on an interactive forum. The contests of Internet gaming are played out in a zone of loose ethics and even looser consequences. The concept of how a game should be played can lead to Wars more heated than the Big Team Skirmish to Capture that Flag.

At Tied the Leader, our pursuit of a good game can [at times] outweigh our pursuit of a victory. We seek to play the game the way it was meant to be played. We endeavor to share a decent experience with the fellow geeks who come to us randomly in the form of our opponents. We don’t bounce to the top of the map – and wouldn’t if we knew how. We don’t alter game code to give us an unfair advantage. In our neighborhood of cyberspace, the only thing worse than losing is having to apologize for a victory that was won through dirty pool. This mission has served us well; stacking our clan with agreeable fellows [read: Gunslingers] and luring worthy opponents to compete in arranged matches.

This week, however, Controversy found Tied the Leader debating the notion of “Button Skilling”. Call it what you will. Glitching, BXB, button tapping. Cheating? “Extremely poor sportsmanship…” Whatever jargon one employs, for the uniformed, the practice in question relates to canceling the animation of your Avatar in Halo 2 in the interest of better performance in delivering the pain. After all, no one with a well-trained thumb wants to watch the Master Chief follow through on a beatdown, when he could be delivering another beatdown [or a salvo of projectiles] even faster.

Right?

Wrong?

That is the question, fair gamers.

The official clan of ‘Tied the Leader’ lost a valuable Sniper to this debate over the weekend – even though he did have his own things going on. As goes with any debate, gamers are extremely passionate about how they play. Who can blame them… Those of you who have found your way to this forum are likely to have heard about this issue from the same places that led you here. This forum is not trying to break the story. What we are looking for is your opinion on the matter.

The debate came to us through an idea expressed in the constant Tsunami of Debate found on the Bungie Forums. It has been widely circulated, and need only be linked here for the sake of our credibility. In the views of an employee at our favorite development studio, “button glitching” is a candy-coated euphemism for “extremely poor sportsmanship”. As a singularity, it isn’t an offense worthy of a ban, but it is frowned upon and worthy of negative feedback.

What is a Gunslinger to do? We are committed to sportsmanship, after all. We don’t have the market cornered by any means, but we are more sensitive about it than most clans. Another well written article by a Legendary source at HaloWiki addresses the practice of “Button Tapping” as a debilitating illness. Readers are taken through a step-by-step program to aid in breaking the addiction.

Now, here comes The Poll. You are being put to the question[s]. What will be the reaction from the Halo Community? As always, MLG will set and publish their own rules. When you find yourself gaming on your couch, however, how will you conduct your game when that referee is not looking over your shoulder? Does a forum entry from a Bungie employee amount to an official announcement from He Who Wields the BanHammer? Is this to be a Gentlemen’s agreement? And, if so, how many Gentlemen are we likely to encounter on Xbox Live?

This is not a complaint aimed at the heart of Bungie. Never, friends. We take our cues from The Maker. On this occasion, it is just harder to know what is expected of sportsmen who find their sport online with a controller in-hand.

So, sound off. How will you bring your game when you face off against the Gunslingers? Your answers may have a direct impact on how we fight back.

Posted by XerxdeeJ

Opinions 78

  1. #LINK D0619 T1531
    Shaumarai wrote...

    I am invovled in a clan that also beleives playing the game as originally intended is the way to progress in your craft. If you are glitching in any form not intended then you are only hurting yourself.

    Yes weapon glitching, after being mastered will get you more kills, but weapon control, map control, and team control are more difficult to master and garner more respect from respectful gamers.

    Nothing much else to say, glitching and modding may get you wins, but they are’nt legitimate and in reality you are only cheating yourself out of getting better.

  2. #LINK D0619 T1531
    Jim wrote...

    Personally, I have little use for glitching. I’m content to continue playing the game the way I always have – the way the user’s manual says it ought to be done. It seems to me that glitching is a shortcut, and as such has a way of short-circuiting creativity. I’d much rather lose to a guy who can get me with a cleverly bounced frag grenade than to a guy who knows a way to rip a couple of BR bursts through because he knows a key combination that exploits a programming weakness in the game. But then again, I play for fun, and the ‘rules’ (read: ethics) seem to be a bit different for those who simply play to win.

  3. #LINK D0619 T1531
    Sean (DaedHead88) wrote...

    Long time lurker, first time poster. This is an issue that strikes close to home for me. I hate cheating, it ruins games. It makes it so fun can only be had by one person, the cheater. The only thing I hate more then cheating, is a cheater saying he didn’t cheat. Button Glitching is just as bad as standby, bridging and yes superjumping. I don’t know how to do any of the superjumps and I know the button glitches only by name, I have never tried them. to anybody who thinks these two forms of cheating are legit, think about this, It is not a “skill” that everyone has, and the only way to aquire this “skill” is by learning it from another cheater. If you wanna impress anybody with your gaming skills, you’d do a better job if you weren’t so busy finding loop holes in game code that allows you an advantage over me, because when you’re crouched down against a wall, trying to get the screen to glitch so you can bounce way in to the sky, I’ll be right there to assassinate you. And about the sword-fearing wimps known as the MLG, if thy do allow any glitches in their rules, its just gives me more reason to never play with them, or in their stupid playlist.

  4. #LINK D0619 T1535
    Maraxus6 wrote...

    Frankly, Bungie didnt intend for the glitches to be in the game. If you utilize these glitches to your advantage, you are playing the game contrary to the same restrictions that it was meant to be played by. In truth, while it may be ‘cooler’ or more effective to utilize these exploits to win, in the end all you are doing is CHEATING. Plain and simple. The Bungie Employee dubbed ‘Ninja on Fire’ himself even said in a forum post that he personally felt that using in-game exploits was cheating. I, for one, agree. I try to keep myself to a ‘Halo Code of Honor’ while I play (Even as an Elite model), which involves prohibited use of the ‘B*tch Combo’, and the auto-reloads, BXR, BXB, etc.

    If you DO utilize these, shame on you. You’re really no better in that run than Ken Lay and Jeff Skilling, except you only arent taking people’s money, you’re just showing you’ll do whatever it takes to win a game; which is sad. A wise warrior learns from his defeats as much as his victories.

  5. #LINK D0619 T1547
    XerxdeeJ wrote...

    Tied the Leader is glad for your comments, but harbors no ill will towards the MLG Community. In fact, we are engineering a War Machine to take them on…

    Enron, however, is a valid taget for our collective scorn. Smartest Guys in the Room, my ass.
  6. #LINK D0619 T1557
    Stuicide wrote...

    I’m not going to lie, I’ve used the BXR [rarely] in the past. But, if a Bungie employee says that he’d leave cheating feedback, then it doesn’t take me two seconds to figure out that I’m not going to be doing that. It may have taken Bungie a while to take a stand on this issue, but the ruling has been made and in my mind, I will follow the law of the land and have a good game.

  7. #LINK D0619 T1559
    StalkingElmo wrote...

    I will continue using button combos. I think they add depth to the game because you’re not totally screwed up close if you have a BR. I think that’s why Bungie doesn’t like them. The way the game is intended is a rock/paper/scissors model where the shotgun or sword is supposed to automatically kill a BR up close. BXR or BXB gives you a fighting chance to survive if someone pulls a sword on you. It’s hard to do, but if you do it right it lets you overcome a crappy situation with skill, instead of just being unable to do anything. Personally, if I have the sword and someone manages to BXR me, I just think I got outplayed. I’m not going to cry and leave cheating feedback just because I thought I should automatically win a fight just because I had the sword. Same thing with RRX. If someone can actually kill me in a real game with that, more power to them. It’s hard as hell to pull off.

    Then again, I almost never play Matchmaking because it’s not fun. So it’s a moot point.

    All the fanboys seem so eager to suck up to Bungie so they’ll pat you on the head.

  8. #LINK D0619 T1606
    bigpapirick wrote...

    I am in agreement with Shaumari. I am in the same clan with him and this debate recently surfaced on our forums. It was decided, as your group has, that these button glitches are unsportsman-like. I believe a problem exists in how to identify those who abuse them. I’m not just talking “banhammer” here. I’m talking how do we as members of groups which are striving for more, identify those who use these glitches in game?

  9. #LINK D0619 T1613
    XerxdeeJ wrote...

    The TTL Gunslingers have our Overlord High Council. We realize that we cannot [nor would we want to] run our clan like a Junior High School homeroom. The best we can do is to try and foster a culture of sportsmanship and hope that it is followed. At the same time, we don’t want to be so Puritanical [rhymes with Tyranical] that we ruin the fun that our gamers are supposed to find in our forum. Overall, it is a matter of communication between two clans who are planning a challenge. Otherwise, we bring a clean game into matchmaking, until we are given reason not to…

  10. #LINK D0619 T1649
    F1R3 wrote...

    i am a guilty party of button combos. I use BxR and BxB Alot and yes the occasional double shot. so people talk about playing the game as intended to be played. well on sanctuary did bungie intend for people to get on top of the center ring? did they intend people to get on top of Pink2? or use the ledge from snipe 2 to get to snipe 3? there are many different types of “explots out there to give one an advantage over another. glitches are part of any video game. now the grabbing the flag through walls or capturing the flag through the floor etc. those to me are cheating, but then again others might not think that . Other then Bridging and modding, cheating becomes a point of view and opinion rather then facts. All we can hope is that Halo 3 will not have all of these things and it will truely be played as intended

  11. #LINK D0619 T1654
    XerxdeeJ wrote...

    Oh! You are one of those 2old2play MLG bastards that kick my ass.

    I hear that shit over proximity, and I think “Pink 2? It’s Midship. The whole bloomin’ place is pink!”

    Then I die.

  12. #LINK D0619 T1701
    A Top Bloke wrote...

    Does everybody way back when Bungie was making promises about Halo 2? They said they would be making weapon melee combinations that is pretty much what is going on now. Learning how to BXR is not that difficult i dont do it but i am planning on doing it because the fact of the matter is that it is going to happen to me sooner or later. It is there for anybody to use its not like you have got like an extra button on your controller or anything.

  13. #LINK D0619 T1720
    II Synthesis II wrote...

    In the early stages of gaming, where you are just there to have fun win or lose, button combinations and weapon glitches may seem like they are cheating and giving those who use them an unfair advantage. However, as you increase your skill and play to not only have fun but to win as well, an advantage is an advantage.

    I think a lot of people are misinterpreting what these weapon glitches can do for the game. The glitches such as BxR, BxB, RRx are readily available to anybody in possession of a battle rifle. Because of this, everyone can perform the glitches which keep the games balance in tact.

    The only argument that can be used against weapon glitches is that it’s not the way Bungie intended the game to be. However, if I recall, weapon glitches were used in halo 1 as well such as BLB (double melee) and xxY (Backpack Reload). These glitches create more options for players who have taken the time and practice to learn them. The same applies for halo 2. Everyone has access to these glitches, and it is their choice to learn how to use these complex manipulations that could earn them 2 more kills a game because they had that extra option to BxR the Sword guy.

    Some people might want to relate weapon glitches to super bouncing, or even god forbid modding, stand by and bridging. Here’s the difference. In order to do all those, special requirements must be met. Those requirements cannot be met by everyone in the game.

    Stand by: You need to have host.
    Bridging: Special programs as well as hardware
    Modding: Action Replay as well as host
    Super Bouncing: Only work in specific spots that are easily guarded by already super bounced players.

    As you can see, all of those manipulations are not accessible by every one in the game. This throws off the balance and creates a terrible experience for those caught on the wrong side.

    Because weapon glitches can be used by all, the balance remains in tact and you have the option, right and capability to use these glitching skills to fight back.

    (On a side note, to whoever said that MLG are pansies because we fear the sword:
    The sword can be used in EVERY game type except for FFA. In no way do we fear it, in fact we encourage its use. It was only banned in FFA because of the obvious advantage it’s user would receive.)

  14. #LINK D0619 T1720
    Fozma wrote...

    I use these character manipulation (yes that it what i call them) techniques and have never considered them cheating. While i admit that Bungie did not put them in the game, to me they add another layer of depth and skill to Halo. I argue this because in a typical melee fight the person that gets the first hit in wins, by using BXR/BXB (i’m starting to hate the terminology :S) makes melee fights far more dynamic, skilful and exciting. This is the way i like playing Halo.
    Also I think people are underestimating the difficulty of these techniques, it’s not simply a case of pressing B then X then R – the X has to be timed to coincide with the instant the melee connects (for optimum efficiency) and the shot has to be in the head. Additionally, these techniques will NOT suddenly make you a better player – your proficiency at the essentials and your imagination when implementing them determines this. Also character manipulation does not (no matter how hard you argue) ruin the game. It might get you a couple of kills an entire round. Superbouncing/standbye/mods ruins the game for everyone.
    The way i see it, we all have our different opinions on this therefore we should all play our own way and not get into any foolish arguments about MLG or whatever.

  15. #LINK D0619 T1725
    XerxdeeJ wrote...

    There is a lot of thoughtful effort being lent to this.

    I appreciate it.

  16. #LINK D0619 T1735
    Darksage wrote...

    Well, until I joined 2old2play I had been a completely legitimate player, playing the game exactly as intended, meaning no superbounces, no button combos. I was even then an outstanding player. Now that I have become aware of these conbos, it hasn’t really changed my gameplay much. I still never BXR, or RRX in an actual game. However I have been known to BXB just because if I don’t, I know my opponent probably will, so I had to adapt.

    I will continue to play as I always have, I don’t think that I will stop BXBing, but I’m not about to start superbouncing, RRXing, or BXRing anytime soon.

    It would be nice if everyone could agree to no longer button combo, but we know that’s not about to happen. I’d drop BXB if I knew no one else was going to do it.

  17. #LINK D0619 T1736
    Brandonuke wrote...

    I don’t do button combos, and i don’t cheat, i hope that when Halo 3 comes out on the 360 it not only matches you by your “level” but also by your rep, not only in Halo 3 but in all games. With the superior feedback system anybody who cheats will have negative feed back permanately attached to their name, their rep will go down and in the end it’ll be the 1 or 1/2 star cheaters playing the cheaters, the quitters, etc. And the good sportsmen with the 5 star good rep, fun to play with, will be having a ball playing against like minded individuals.

  18. #LINK D0619 T1742
    Shaumarai wrote...

    Brandonuke,

    That is my hope as well, the 360 gives us that power and I believe if anyone is to use it correctly it would be Bungie.

  19. #LINK D0619 T1751
    II Synthesis II wrote...

    Darksage,
    Could it not be argued that if every one used those glitched then it would be even playing ground among all the players?

    I’ve already stated the difference between superbouncing and weapon glitches/manipulations.

    Bouncing – Bad
    Glitching – Good

  20. #LINK D0619 T1800
    XerxdeeJ wrote...

    I have been managing flame wars on forums under this banner for long enough to know one thing for sure.

    You will never get every one to agree on anything.

    Our Gunslinger policy on this issue is taking shape. For Clan Challenges, we will be setting the rules before hand. For matchmaking, I will personally not be using these button glitches. This may have something to do with the fact that I am too lazy to learn how. My Warthog has no use for them anyways [and yes, it is MINE all MINE]. However, if I go down under the exploit of a double-punch, I am removing any self-imposed embargos over team chat.

    I’ll trust my opponents until they give me a reason not to.

  21. #LINK D0619 T1851
    Adam the one wrote...

    wow guys it’s a game. Who really cares how someone plays? It’s not like real life or anythig. Wow, someone does a little glitch. Get over it why don’t you?

  22. #LINK D0619 T1901
    XerxdeeJ wrote...

    Chess is a game. And people agonize their entire lives over strategy and move sequences.

    Soccer [read: Football] is a game, and people stab each other in the streets over whose team deserves to win.

    Baseball is a game, and people have been trying for my entire life to convince me that it is the binding cornerstone of our culture.

    Halo is a game, and all we were doing was having a gentlemanly discussion about the rules – until you showed up, that is.

  23. #LINK D0619 T1904
    Jobyn wrote...

    Admittedly, I did the super jump when it first came out. Tried it probably twice. I convinced myself that is wasn’t cheating because Bungie said it wasn’t.

    It wasn’t until someone did it to me that I stopped. I realized how angry it made me, and how unfair it was to be glitched.

    Now, anything other than pressing the right trigger faster than someone else is unacceptable to me (and luckily to my clan too). It just doesn’t seem right, when we are just playing for fun, and not to embarass another team, or to feel better about ourselves (I already feel pretty damn good, thanks very much…I mean…I am hot).

    Great article yet again Deej.

  24. #LINK D0619 T1910
    XerxdeeJ wrote...

    The previous comment comes from a clan that plays a consistantly dangerous, and consistantly clean game.

    It can be done. I’d put your best glitchers up against these guys any day of the week.

  25. #LINK D0619 T1934
    Edge of Blade wrote...

    Synthesis says “Because of this, everyone can perform the glitches which keep the games balance in tact.”

    I do not agree with your or MLG’s brand of vigilante “balance”. In fact, your definition of balance is flawed already. Host STILL has an advantage, even if glitcher is paired up against glitcher. And your button glitches never won against a real modder or a bridger so stop pretending they did.

    The game was already balanced, believe it or not.

    I don’t blame Major League “Glitchers” for allowing this, but I DO blame every self-important professional gaming league for thinking a sport can exist in a man-made construct, the TRUE problem that led to this issue. Just think. Gaming at the Olympics? Just put a gamer’s body up against an Olympic Athelete’s and tell me they should be competeing on the same international stage.

    It is pro leagues who push gamers so hard that gaming is ONLY about winning, and the only way to win is to simply train your fingers to do something a little weird. Sure….that’s skill…right. Now, go into pro boxing and see how far you get with that mentality. In a sport, you have to train your WHOLE body, not exploit a glitch in “reality”. If you cheat in boxing, you might get away with a few elbows, but after a while, you start losing points and matches.

    Overall, you should not be looking to logically prove or disprove glitching’s legitimacy because there are only subjective arguments in this scenario. The game is a man-made construct and is inherently subjective to the creator’s perception…and the creator of Halo 2 has decried the use of button glitches. Are you going to ignore that?

    Look to the philosophy of real sports and then look at the organizations that legitimize this brand of cheating. It’s still cheating no matter how you spin it. If you play fair and lose to an opponent playing fair, you can take it like a man. But if you have to glitch to win, you are a coward who can’t accept defeat and has to play dirty. Makes me wonder what that means for those glitching kids me and Capown beat in Omaha. They might have beat us square if they weren’t worried about button glitches.

  26. #LINK D0619 T1939
    Zanziboy wrote...

    Are we really supposed to look to the Olympic Games for insight into Halo?

    And someone isn’t a coward just because they don’t agree with you.

  27. #LINK D0619 T2014
    II Synthesis II wrote...

    Edge of Blade,

    You bring up some interesting points. Unfortunately, I do not see how you relate gaming to the olympics. Personaly, the two are no where near comparison. MLG, or competitive game as a whole for that matter is just that.. competitive gaming.

    You act as though these glitches take away from the game, make it unfair for others. Do I need to glitch to win? No. Does it help? No, not when all the people I play against at my level glitch as well.

    No matter what gametype I go into, whether hardcore, double team or even BTB, I get glitched. Is that an advantage to them? Only if I let it be. By glitching, not only am I preventing them from having an advantage, but also opening up some alternate options of how I want to go about trying to get a kill.

    Overall, weapon glitches do nothing but help.

    (I also never said I beat modder/bridgers with my glitches. I only showed how the two are completely different.)

  28. #LINK D0619 T2253
    Puzzled wrote...

    Well, I use the BYB melee tactic when in a melee battle. And I’ve used the BXR one once or twice effectively in gameplay.

    Personally, there are certain jumps, crouch jumps and edges that you can walk on, that certainly don’t seem to be obviously a part of the game. However, someone, at some point realized that if you wait to jump at the last moment and crouch at the height of your jump, you can reach that jump. Or you can actually walk on that small ledge, or jump onto the ledge above the door. This gives you a distinct, non-typical entrance into a room or level that may not be being defended. Thus giving you an advantage. Can everyone do these jumps? Well, yes and no. Yes, everyone can perform these jumps with some practice and knowing when, where and at what angles to jump. But, many people won’t learn these jumps. Why? Some feel that they may be exploits to the purity of the game, others just don’t want to practice them and don’t take the game serious enough. But others will learn the advantages of them and use them.

    Button combos are the same way. Someone, someway, somehow discovered that if you tap X after your melee connects that you can cancel the animation and melee again.

    I don’t have a problem with people using these button combos. They are definitely a skill to be learned and nothing at all like bridging, standbying or the like.

  29. #LINK D0620 T0017
    XerxdeeJ wrote...

    Doesn’t sound like you are Puzzled at all. But riddle me this…

    I confronted a modder once through the Bungie Forums – tracked him down through the game viewer and alerted him to the fact that an e-Mail had been sent to h2cheats@microsoft.com.

    In the terms of his argument, life on Xbox Live is ‘Mod or be Modded’. His cheating was a self-defense shield. Yes. He was banned.

    Tell me: At what point does the “Everyone Else Does It” argument become null and void?

    Crouch jumping? No problem there.

    Warthog Whoring? Yes, please, Mama!

    Button Glitches? Crossing into controversial waters.

    Bridging? Let me know what your new tag is. Wait. Don’t.

    Modding? That’s the only game I will potentially quit.

    It’s a slippery slope. Where is the friction point?

  30. #LINK D0620 T0018
    Sunburned Goose wrote...

    I’m an old school video gamer. I believe that there is a level most players enjoy when playing video games, but the ‘special’ few that spend enough time to learn the patterns of the ghosts in Pac Man, all the better for them. Do I get frustrated at the guy that has 83 million on Geometry Wars, no, but I sleep better at night knowing that I’m not that guy :D

    Regardless, when I play matchmaking, if its in the game, someone is going to do it. That means Superjumping, glitching, scoring through geometry, hiding in carney holes, and I’m sure there is something else out there I don’t even know about. I still remember the cries in December of 2004 about the noob combo.

    When I am playing a clan match, intra-clan tournament, or some other organized event, I believe in something called “Gentleman Rules”. That means playing the game as it was intended to be played. This is still relative, and that’s fine, but the group will self-police. BXB, BXR, etc, seem to be more and more accepted in circles as more and more learn about them, but I don’t do them, nor do I endorse them. If a player uses them against me, that’s cool, but it just makes my BR-PP (noob combo) kills that much sweeter.

    So, when TTL Gunslingers meets the Wheezin Geezers from 2o2p in July, I have every bit of confidence that we’ll observe the “Gentleman Rules” of Halo 2.

  31. #LINK D0620 T0103
    G00mper wrote...

    The sportsmanship of button glitching is debatable. The fact remains that they aren’t going anywhere unless Bungie releases a patch. They say to give feedback, but we all know the results of that are next to nothing.

    Bungie made the game, if its broken they have to fix it.

  32. #LINK D0620 T0125
    XerxdeeJ wrote...

    It’s not broken.

    I played it just an hour ago.

    Don’t worry, everyone. False alarm. It still works just fine.

  33. #LINK D0620 T0128
    eksessiv wrote...

    I think it’s a moot point. People act like the combos determine a lot of games when they don’t. A combo is good for defending yourself against swords and shotguns. I mean what are you supposed to do against a sword? If you want to talk about some BS there’s the first weapon I’d start with. That creates such a disadvantage, but no one wants to talk about that though. The pp combo. What chance does someone have against it? There are so many weapons that are just overpowering in the game for people to worry about a button combo that will usually only get you maybe a few more kills because you can only use most of them in up close combat. If Bungie really cared they’d fix it. They don’t care though, it’s just something for them to rant about. If they were really concerned with glitches changing the game, then superbouncing would’ve been fixed a long time ago. Go play team snipers and have a whole team get up on top of the base with a lead. See how long it takes you to get mad and then tell me you honestly feel the same if someone bxb’s you. Doubt you’ll feel the same. You all are fooled to think Bungie really cares. They’ve fixed flag glitches before, so we know they could fix these if they really wanted.

    And on the leaving feedback…..... how can they really prove you used it?

  34. #LINK D0620 T0151
    XerxdeeJ wrote...

    Just to clarify the issue… This thread is not intended to serve as some sort of grassroots appeal to Bungie to distribute a patch. We leave that sort of rhetoric to people who think Halo 2 Sucks.

    This discussion is about how varying clans [and the community in general] will respond to the negative feedback associated with the button combos.

    This may be a moot point for a developer who is hard at work on our next grand addiction. For those of us who will be playing Halo 2 until then, it is sort of up to us to figure this out.

  35. #LINK D0620 T0419
    vshields ash wrote...

    i play fair, i don’t use glitchs, or any other cheats. if i find i’m on a team yhat’s cheating, i quit. when i win fairly, i feel good about my efforts ;)
    ash

  36. #LINK D0620 T0544
    G00mper wrote...

    This thread is not intended to serve as some sort of grassroots appeal to Bungie to distribute a patch. We leave that sort of rhetoric to people who think Halo 2 Sucks.

    I don’t think Halo 2 sucks, but it does suck that super bouncing hasn’t been patched and probably never will be. I brought up the patch issue so folks will realize where the blame should lie regarding ‘glitches’.

    I use the combos, they’re in the game. I’ll gladly get used to not using them if they are ever removed.

  37. #LINK D0620 T0638
    F1R3 wrote...

    the more i read the bigger the circle gets.

    As you said not everyone will agree.

    I have seen alot of good points on here, But i think eks said it best. ” these combos will noti determine the outcome of the game” you might hold Pink 2 for a minute longer because you got a qucik double kill, but really all button combos do is give you and upclose advantage. BR is a mid range weapon.

  38. #LINK D0620 T0738
    Puzzled wrote...

    Good points by everyone so far. I’d only add that in your typical button mashing fighting game, there are very complex button combos that can be learned and systematically chained together to give you an unbelievably powerful attack sequence and possibly a quick kill. In those games it’s hardly viewed as cheating. Why? Because everyone has the potential to do those moves, if they’d just learn the combos. i.e. practice.

    W/the button combos in Halo, these will not be the deciding factor in most games. If you win a TS by 1 or 2 kills then, perhaps the combos aided your victory. But map position, team shooting, weapon control and good communication should probably the biggest of your concerns.

    The combos give you some options with up close combat, that’s all.

    Personally with me, there’s always a risk that I’ll screw up the combo, I’ve done it plenty of times and it’s led to my quick disposal. So, sometimes it’s too my opponents advantage that I use combos. LOL!

    Again, personally I don’t have a problem with the button combos being used.

    But, good luck on coming up with a solution or guideline for the conduct of TTL guys.

    Good gaming,

    Puzzled

  39. #LINK D0620 T0741
    Sean (DaedHead88) wrote...

    This is to all the people who think there is no defense against the sword except button combos. This is just proof of how weak Button combos and other glitches make you. The sword is not the end all weapon some players think it is, alot of how effective the sword is depends on the player weilding it and on the player defending against it. When you see a sword guy running towards you, out of range, just back up and shoot, no problem. When they are up close, just quickly strafe in the direction of your opponents empty hand (if you go sword hand, you’re doomed.) and he will go flying past you, opening himself up for an easy assasination. All without exploiting a glitch.

    There is a line to be drawn on this issue, and I think XerxdeeJ, allready made it: “Crouch jumping? No problem there.

    Warthog Whoring? Yes, please, Mama!

    Button Glitches? Crossing into controversial waters.

    Bridging? Let me know what your new tag is. Wait. Don’t.

    Modding? That’s the only game I will potentially quit.”

    Crouch jumping is a skill, no way is it exploiting code, if you want, I’ll show you how to get on top of the middle of sanctuary with just crouch jumping (my Gamertag is in parentheses in my name). Weapon and vehicle control is another skill that dosn’t exploit code in anyway. It trully is the button combos where the line is drawn for me, and many other gamers. It may not be as bad as superbouncing, or as easy to do as modding, but its cheating none the less.

  40. #LINK D0620 T0748
    ViperTheM1ghty (GT:sn34kym070) wrote...

    I think it is far past time for Bungie to have officially said something about whether the two behaviors in question are cheating or not. This is the closest thing to an official word from them so far, and it is only a single forum post by one Bungie employee, not a Bungie spokesperson. Nothing against him, but i think it would help those who are on the fence about this if he got backed up by Official Bungie. I think that this is something they should have addressed much earlier. Not a patch, but just a note in an update or something else front page that said “hey, it IS cheating.”

    I’ve wondered since the things came out if they were cheating or not, and therefore have pretty much reasoned my own way through to the conclusion that button combos were completely fine, and that superbouncing was merely very cheap, and more similar to spawn killing or camping than to modding or standbying. Something to be used against enemies but not friends. I’m not particularly good at either glitch, but i do know how to do the main bounce on Zanzibar one pretty well. I have also within the last month learned that crazy BXR. So i’ve learned a couple things about them.

    For the button combos, and especially BXR, i have found that the people who regularly use it are the ones that can slaughter me anyway.

    For superbouncing, i’ve found that it is not that much of an advantage, for me or for others. I’ve died trying it and killed lots of people that do it, and as such i usually only use it when i am in mess-around-mode, either ridiculously far ahead or impossibly behind.

    Personally, i’ve decided to stop using combos and superbouncing unless they are used against me in a game. Then it’s on ;).

    I’d also like to point out that you can get on top of the top of the big fan on zanzibar by crouch jumping.

  41. #LINK D0620 T0856
    Jobyn wrote...

    I think that it comes down to the fact that Bungie did indeed make a superbly balanced game. The thousands of competitive people who play it are looking for any advantage they can find.

    To use baseball analogies:
    Raise you leg higher to get more drive, no problem there.
    Grip the ball in a new way? Yes, please.
    Lick your fingers before pitching? Controversial
    Scuff the ball? Don’t let them find the file, or your day ends early.
    Steroids/HGH? That makes people quit watching the game.

    If there is a way to cheat, the ultra-competitive players will find it, and exploit it. It doesn’t become a problem because that one person isn’t ruining the game…just hurting it. The problem comes when it trickles down to the masses who want into the success.

    There are many more Halo players per day than baseball players. If there is a glitch, it will be found. We can hope that Halo 3 will fix these issues, but with the shear number of players, there are bound to be more glitches they find. In essence, we become the beta testers, as Bungie can’t afford to hire enough beta testers to go through every aspect of the game like a million gamers can do. Bungie can then choose to fix the problems (dummying/stand-by/modding/etc…) or to let it slide and suggest against doing it (super jump/button glitch).

    We need to remember that Bungie is a business. I don’t think it is cost effective for them to spend the weeks of fixing the glitches and testing those fixes to repair such a small problem (much as the ump in baseball doesn’t frisk the pitcher every inning to look for a glob of Vaseline).

    If people feel that they want to take advantage of something that clearly wasn’t meant to be in the game, then it is nearly impossible to stop them. Does that make it right? Of course not. You just have to draw your own line where your enjoyment of a game ends and your desire to beat someone else (in a video game) begins.

  42. #LINK D0620 T0933
    Booster MPS wrote...

    Another long time lurker, first time poster as well over here. First I think the community that you run is outstanding and I admire everything you stand for. Hopefully I will join you guys one day.

    Bridging
    Button Glitching
    Exploits
    Super Jumping

    Call these things what they are. By doing any of these actions you are playing the game in a way that it was not intended to be played. For example: If it were true that you could go to a certain part of the Midship map and do a button combo and all of a sudden you are on a Banshee would that be cheating? Yes, without question. The same is true for every one of these exploits. While cheating could be a strong word for these actions, using them shows very very poor sportsmanship at best.

    As for those Enron guys, sure, sign me up. I would love to see some of those guys in my scope – it would be good therapy for an ex employee like me!

  43. #LINK D0620 T0933
    Woar wrote...

    The whole “balance” argument always confuses me. Do people actually know what the word “balance” means? Because most of the time, it seems folks want to implement changes that actually reduce balance. A person being able to effectively and quickly kill anyone from point blank to medium range with a single weapon (i.e. using the BR along with combos) is, to me, utterly unbalanced. Basically it makes Halo 2 a 1-weapon game, which is not really much fun. I don’t really have anything against MLG, but I find watching vids of their games extremely boring because it’s just BR and wildly throwing nades.

    Also, for the sword and noob combo haters out there: these weapons are not unbalanced in the least. Both can be used to get quick kills, certainly, but both are also only effective when used correctly in specific situations. Sword lunges and plasma shots can both be dodged. In fact, I often find that people using these weapon types are easier kills simply because of over-confidence. There is nothing I like seeing better than someone running around with a sword or a charged plasma pistol, because you know EXACTLY what they will try to do, and predictable enemies are easier to kill. Also, it’s funny that no one complains that the easiest one shot kills in the game are unbalanced: the sniper rifle and the rocket launcher. Has anyone ever considered that perhaps weapons like the sword and noob combo were devised to give players a better chance at defeating these weapons?

    Finally, back to the glitches/combos/whatever. Much of what these combos do only speed up or streamline tactics that already exist. For instance, with a BR, you don’t have to BXR someone to quickly dispatch them. A regular melee followed by a headshot will do the trick nearly as quickly; all you are doing is leaving out the X. Also, for those of you complaining about melee fights always going to the person who swings first, try crouching during your next melee fight, and I think you’ll find that you effectively turned the tables without having to exploit a glitch.

    If you have comments, Woar is my GT.

  44. #LINK D0620 T1028
    Mercutio wrote...

    No definition of cheating really seems to fit hand-in-glove style to glitching. It is not dishonest, fraudulent, artful strategy, insincere, or outwitting. So, for personal reasons, each of us tries to condemn the other side. The problem is that we lack the language to describe the issue. Fairness is relative. Glitching defined as cheating is relative.

    All that remains is fun, yet “fun” is relative as well. Fun for me is to gather some friends and own each other. Fun for me is to practice a move, then pull it off at the opportune moment and whoop in triumph.

    Glitching is only bad if it ruins the fun. I’ve played with super-bouncers before. It wasn’t fun, so I’ve never bothered to learn how to do it. I’ve played with glitchers before I knew how to glitch. It was still fun. My skill, glitching or not, faces off against their skill. My weapon combo vs. their’s. Win or lose, it’s fun!

    I could see owning a glitcher by Bungie-sponsored methods would probably be quite fun—just like owning a modder (even just once) is the greatest experience.

    In Halo 1, a friend of mine would stack all the vehicles in his Blood Gulch base to protect his flag. He was not cheating or glitching, though I used the word “cheat” when addressing his tactic. He said if the game allowed it, then he should be allowed to use it. We went around and around arguing. Finally, someone else spoke up and used “fun” as the measuring stick.

    This has been our operating definition ever since. We all play by our own self-imposed rules, though they create multi-leveled playing field. If something becomes unfun, we discuss it (as a group of close friends) and ban it if necessary. Personally, I love a good glitch kill as much as a good sniper headshot, or n00b combo, or sword lunge, or blue sticky. They’re all fun!

    If anyone has not read Sirlin’s Playing to Win series, you probably should. His arguments are compelling.

  45. #LINK D0620 T1037
    XerxdeeJ wrote...

    Wow! Great post. Thanks!

    I must admit that being on the end of a double-melee has never ruined my fun. I am recreational enough about my gaming habit to be able to admire my opponents.

    After all, aren’t the best Gunslingers the ones with the quickest hands?

    Overall, this discussion thread is a yardstick for how we interact with other clans. We would hate to break our promise of giving any of you a “Good Game.”

  46. #LINK D0620 T1422
    TTL Jericho wrote...

    BXB doens’t bug me, but double and tripple BR shots sure as heck do. After the discussion on our forums this weekend I was playing a match of rumble pit on Burial Mounds. One player repeatedly used double and tripple shots on me. It gets frustrating when you die so quickly.

    I tried to adjust my gameplace, but there was only 6 people in the match so options were limited.

    What it did is it made me stop going after him and looking for another kill, because I couldn’t trump his cards.

    Button glitches like that ruin the fun for me when I’m playing.

    It’s like a bully 3 times my size, holding my head at arms length while I flail way unable to reach him.

  47. #LINK D0620 T1527
    DTS Wheels wrote...

    I don’t think that this issue is one to be easily resolved, as one can see by all of the attention that this is getting. As I see it, it can only be addressed by the use of “Gentleman’s Rules.” If two oppoing clans, or MLG teams agree to the specifics before the match, this should work. Being that I don’t condone any type of “traditional” cheating and cannot physically implement any form of button glitch, or super bounce for that matter, I can only comment on Bungi.

    I do hold issue with Bungi. As stated in an earlier post, it’s about time that they said something! Even if it was from an employee, who very well may be the company’s black sheep, for all we know. I’m not really convinced that his statement is the be-all/end-all that Bungi agrees with – until I see an official statement from Bungi.

    Furthermore, I feel that if this is indeed an issue that Bungi is truely concerned about, then by god, let them fix it. It’s almost as if Bungi created a Frankenstein and now they can’t control its actions. If they want the game to be played by the initial concept that was first spawned by them, then they should have made all necessary precautions prior to its release to the public.

    What we have to examine is the role of Bungi. In all due respect as the maker of one of the most entertaining video games ever, they do indeed deserve an ear from the gamers who play their game. Nonetheless, to what level of standard do we place Bungi in determining the game play?

    How we operate and play specific parts and issues of a game that they themselves left, for lack of a better word, “abstract” and perhaps even, “incomplete” should be left to those who tread in those waters and play the game. Simply put, if issues such as button glitches and other forms of what the norm considers cheating are truly an issue for Bungi, then they should fix it.

  48. #LINK D0620 T1811
    Adam the one wrote...

    wow kid, it’s spelled BUNGIE!!! Do you not look at the screen when Halo 2 first starts up? Wow.

  49. #LINK D0620 T1833
    Stuicide wrote...

    Do you know who that is? It’s WHEELS. The same wheels who wrote the brain waves article for this very blog. And he’s no kid, he’s old.

  50. #LINK D0620 T1916
    Kaiavatar wrote...

    The button glitching should not be used in my humble opinion. When have you ever seen (in real life not the movies) one soldier wielding his way to victory over the other side? Never I should hope you say. There is no BXR in RL, there is no backpack reload, There is only physics of life upon which this game is basically built. Sure we may bend the rules due to errant code or even pull a Kirk and rewrite the code to win our particular ” Kobayashi Maru ” Exercise.
    These abilities were not a part of the game we all shelled out 60$ or so to play.

    I vote that the button glitches should be not used.

  51. #LINK D0620 T2040
    El Burritoh wrote...

    What a discussion! I do hope Bungie hears the community and issues a “real” statement on this matter, so that at least we’ll know where they truly stand.

    I personally think that these types of glitches, as programming oversights, can be removed. They at least make for caution next time around (H3). And I’m sure Bungie will do just that.

    However, I personally think the larger issue at hand is not glitching versus non-glitching, or exploits or whatever. All these things can be done using the code that is actually in the game. Note that things like modding and bridging must be done with outside input. But it’s the built-in code that dictates what we actually can DO. Fortunately, this is a controllable factor, and in theory the developer just needs to tighten up the programming, which I’m sure is NOT easy.

    The larger issue as I see it is the advancement of gaming engines and the possibilities they are opening up now. As gaming engines get closer to imitating real-world physics (or at least greater detail in plausible physics), we’ll wind up with far more parameters than can be summarized in option menus or game settings panels. Ultimately, we may have to rely on unprogrammed, unpoliced rules, just like in real life. When people play paintball, they don’t have a computer stopping them from going wherever they can or shooting after they’re hit. They have to set those rules and trust each other not to cheat.

    My point is, I truly wonder whether a system like XBL will be able to offer really fair gameplay and still give players more and more capabilities, when it’s those capabilities and options that are the catalyst for controversial gameplay.

    I don’t think this should be an argument about the developer’s “intentions” or the debate over the validity of exploits. The game’s code is what it is. If there is a serious problem with that code, developers should make provisions for its correction.

    I simply contend that it MAY BE unreasonable to expect Bungie to provide us with much more than a relative application of gaming parameters, naturally making Matchmaking a quandary.

    Time will tell, but I hope Bungie beats it to the punch.

  52. #LINK D0620 T2209
    XerxdeeJ wrote...

    If I was delusional enough to think that the Bungie team had the time to read a fansite like this one, I would tell them to get back to work on Halo 3.

    We don’t need a patch, so long as we have a collective ethic. I love the paintball metaphor. This issue is as nebulous as spawn camping or throwing the oddball out of reach.

    This is our game now. Bungie has a new project. We are the stewards of our own Clanmatches and our own Gentlemen’s Agreements.

    That is the only topic at hand.

  53. #LINK D0621 T0820
    Jobyn wrote...

    The discussion right now centers on Halo 2, but what about when Halo 3 comes about? There are bound to be glitches that even the best testers can’t discover.

    My question is…will the feedback system prevent people from doing the glitching? Right now, any glitcher is anonymous, and his feedback goes into some XBL void where unicorns and fairies decide the fate. In the next game, there will be consequences for each action…will a star next to your name stop you from glitching?

  54. #LINK D0621 T0952
    TTL Jericho wrote...

    quote
    My question is…will the feedback system prevent people from doing the glitching? Right now, any glitcher is anonymous, and his feedback goes into some XBL void where unicorns and fairies decide the fate. In the next game, there will be consequences for each action…will a star next to your name stop you from glitching?
    /quote

    Joystiq linked to an article in the Guardian discussing griefing and the emerging issue of game conduct in MMOs. Games like WoW and Halo 2 have millions of players making it very difficult for companies to effectively monitor and police activities of troublesome players. The resources needed for a company to monitor a game make it unprofitable (either leeching off the bottom line or on the front ent). This makes it impossible for a company like Blizzard or Bungie to effectively police online play, no matter how big their coffers. The only answer (as noted by Deej and others in this thread) is for the players to take stewardship of the game universe and police themselves.

    From the Guardian:
    quote
    “The most common ‘griefer counter-measure’ is to put in place a strong community system,” says Stephen Davis of IT GlobalSecure, a firm that specializes in developing security technologies for online games.
    /quote

    It makes sense for use to be the front line of defense. In taking ownership of the game, we define the culture and how the game should be played. This of course could bring us, good gamers, into conflict with game developers. The issue of button mashing is a good example. If the game community of Halo 2 finds this acceptable, but Bungie doesn’t, how will that play out?

    I think the star system that the 360 is implementing will go a long way to helping us monitor ourselves. The way the system is intended to work is that it will allow you to rank a player down, so you won’t have to come in contact with him again, and leave him negative feedback. In the long run, people with continued negative feedback will be filtered out of game lobbies from players with positive feedback. This won’t filter out the bad apples in the short term, but knowing that it’s in place now makes me feel like we as good gamers have options that will work.

    I have little doubt that these miscreants will find ways around this system and find exploits Microsoft did not intend. We’ll cross that bridge when we come to it. But for the time being we have a tool and need to start using it. Pronto.

    Unfortunately, the 360 does not recognize games played in the Haloverse in it’s recent player list. The only way to rank a nasty player down using this system is to send them a friends request and then rank them down and remove them from your friends list. It’s cumbersome but I have done this and gotten the satisfaction that I’ve added value to the community by ranking down poor sportsman.

  55. #LINK D0621 T1012
    El Burritoh wrote...

    To Deej: I certainly don’t suggest Bungie go take time away from H3 to fix H2. I just meant that fixing its bugs is possible. Halo 2 is totally our game and it’s up to us to be good stewards of it. Agreed!

    An aside about the 360’s star system: my understanding is that your rep increases even if no feedback is left. If this is true, it could be misleading. By the time H3 comes, everyone will be at 5 without ever touching feedback.

    I agree with the article in the Guardian and the comments about community. That is what will make or break online gaming for many gamers. Frankly, XBL’s zones system won’t do a whole lot. But growing communities like 2old2play (and growing clans like TTL-Gunslingers, The Panic Attacks, TruthRegret, etc..) are where the policing must happen.

    I guess that’s already been said though…sorry to be redundant.

  56. #LINK D0621 T1015
    El Burritoh wrote...

    Just another thought: can you imagine the mind-numbing tedium of leaving feedback and selecting “Avoid This Player” for all the idiots in matchmaking? That’s a part-time job! And yet, if the avoidance system does work, I’d do it!

  57. #LINK D0621 T1028
    DTS Wheels wrote...

    My mistake! It is “Bungie,” as I have obviously been corrected by one of the most impactful participants on this thread.
    1) “It’s just a game get over it!”
    2) “You spelled Bungi wrong!”

    Wow! Incredible dialogue. Maybe we can get some more intellectual guidance. Perhaps “you’re all a bunch of poopy heads” might be the next meaningful and wise statement to come.

    Ah, sarcasm. You got to love it. Wait…...did I spell sarcasm correctly???

  58. #LINK D0621 T1512
    Lord Mdeath wrote...

    First of all, it’s good to see old Deej is back. I was wondering what happened to you man. Yeah, leave it to Deej to come up with a topic that makes me break my long time silence and add my opinion to the TTL blog page. I will try not to piss anyone off, but I know I’m probably going to.

    I think Overswarm , the writer of the Not So Common Sense Halo 2 guide over at HBO said it best when he wrote, “Once that first glitch is discovered, it is never “undiscovered”, and you can’t go back to how simple the game was before.” It is really as simple as that. Glitching is a real part of the Halo 2 experience and it is here to stay. Personally, I have been an avid glitcher for well over a year now. Since I first discovered the “double melee”, I have been obsessed with finding new ways to gain advantages in Halo 2 multiplayer matches. Do I cheat? No, I glitch. They are very different. I don’t interfere with the network connection and I don’t alter any other player’s ability to play the game. Additionally, I don’t use any outside devices to enhance my abilities or degrade your abilities. I simply use what already exists in the code of the game to do whatever I can to win.

    Ahh, here is where we get to what I feel is the heart of the issue. Why do you play Halo 2? I have read so much here about “Gentlemen’s rules” and “Sportsmanship”. It seems that many people, including quite a few Gunslingers, want to ensure that everyone playing the game, both friend and foe, are having a good time. I think that is just wonderful, but it ain’t real. You see, I play to win. I have fun when I win. If you are on the other team, I don’t care if you are having fun. I hope you aren’t having fun because if you are then you are probably winning, which means I am not. I will never mod, Standby, or Bridge but I will do everything and anything the game allows me to do to win. Do I BXR? Hell yes. When I actually do it correctly it gives me a joy akin to getting the coveted “Killtacular”. Do I “double shot”? You know it baby. I spent hours learning how to pull it off and I still don’t do it right all the time. I have sat alone in custom games practicing this maneuver over and over again. I have even run though the first campaign level of Halo 2 a few times to practice the double shot against Elites, just like I did oh so long ago to learn how to use “the combo” correctly. To me these things are no different than sweep sniping, and no one seems to have a problem with that. Hell, I’ll admit it. I used to pull the flag out of many bases through walls or through the floor. I did it because the game let me do it. When it stopped allowing me to do it, I stopped.

    Simply put, I’m not interested in showing any mercy when I’m playing Halo 2. I’m not even interested in the opinion of Bungie when it comes to this matter and I’m certainly not interested in the opinion of others who choose to keep their heads buried in the sand. I don’t spend $50 dollars a year on a live account because I want to provide you with entertainment. I do it because I want to provide me with entertainment. I refuse to dumb-down my abilities because you think it is unfair. I have practiced and I have honed my skills with this game just like I have with other games I enjoy playing like basketball, baseball and hockey. If I drop step you in the post and turn around for the easy lay-up do you think I’m going to stop doing it if you complain that it’s not fair because I’m bigger or stronger than you. No. I’m going to do it until you either find a way to counter it or quit and guard someone else. Oh, and don’t worry, I’ll always be sure to let you know when I BXR you just in case you want to leave feedback.

  59. #LINK D0621 T1609
    Stuicide wrote...

    If that’s what you want to do Lord Mdeath then you do it. As long as you’re not using racial slurs and being a trash talker, I don’t mind getting beaten. Sure I want to win and I play to win, but I also play in a respectful manner. I’m not saying you don’t, because I believe you do. I’m not going to leave feedback on anyone who ‘glitches’ me. I have a hard enough time trying to leave feedback to anyone who actually cheats me of the experience.

  60. #LINK D0621 T2318
    Fouch wrote...

    Jiminy Crickets that’s alot of reading.
    Jericho said that “In taking ownership of the game, we define the culture and how the game should be played.” I just checked my stats on Bungie and my played games list is 150 pages long. I think this definitely gives me some ownership in this title and hence some responsibility. I’m also willing to bet that most of you can boast a similar right of ownership. We are children of the digital age, living parallel lives in digital worlds. If we don’t take care of our own world then who will? This is exactly why I love to see discussions like this one, it shows that people care.
    Reading Deej’s post and your comments I immediately became fixated on the only button glitch I use regularly, the quick YY at the end of my reload to speed things along. This is an extremely simple thing to do and rather humdrum. But does this count as a button glitch, I mean how far are we going to take things?
    It seems to me that an issue like this requires nuance. You can’t list each individual thing and give it a yay or nay, the list would be endless and would have to be refreshed with each new game that comes out. The Gunslinger code has always seemed to me to be wonderfully none specific. You respect others, you give them a fair chance; you play the way you would hope your opponents do. It’s this last one that throws me. I know I don’t play to win; I play for fun and for challenge. At what point do I begin to stop trying my best. Isn’t it the right of the player to try their best in every game? At what point do I stop simply giving my opponents a fair fight and start handicapping myself?
    I don’t BXR or BXB, but this is because I haven’t put the time into practicing them. It seems to me like it’s my loss that I haven’t the ambition to practice. In this light I can’t hold these things against those who do them; they’ve put in the effort to practice so they’ve gotten better, good for them.
    Button Glitches are a grey area between cheating and fair play. I don’t believe they are cheats but you may. I don’t think we should follow what a single Bungie employee say, or even the company as a whole, unless we can justify their reasons. Personally I don’t think the current crop of glitches is a huge problem. They give advantages but not overwhelming ones. More over they require skill, practice and determination or the user will never become proficient with them.
    You may feel different, you may agree, but at least you’re reading and commenting, and trying to figure things out for yourself. That’s a damn important step. Thanks for your words and for reading my ramblings.

  61. #LINK D0622 T0218
    XerxdeeJ wrote...

    Everyone is going to have their own agenda in responding to this debate. Mine deals with imagination.

    The interface of a game is a very crucial component for me. This may sound obvious and universal, but I was honestly happiest as a gamer playing a space combat sim [Freespace2] with a killer flight yolk at the ready. Afterburner keys. Targeting hats. Hot buttons on the base.

    The closer I could come to turning my desktop into a cockpit of a stunt fighter, the more I was engaged. I even had red lights in my gaming room.

    Holding these cluncky controllers in my hands ruins the immersion a little. The Xbox controllers are a grand compromise, though. I love pulling those triggers.

    I have never been a button tapper. When a game turns into a contest to hit a button as fast as I can to approximate effort [like the Crashbreakers on Burnout Revenge] I lose interest. I want the game to have a realistic impact on my physicality. As a decorated pilot [in-game only] who knows the rigors of a good barrel-roll, I don’t even like the Banshee snap rolls.

    In my world, Crimson Skies is an arcade game.

    So, tapping around on the top of that controller is of no interest to me. I want to see The Chief reload. I want to enjoy the look of that arm swinging through a beat down.

    That’s just me. I never took up this issue until the notion of sportsmanship entered the arena.

  62. #LINK D0622 T1220
    TTL Jericho wrote...

    To quote Lord M:

    “To me these things are no different than sweep sniping, and no one seems to have a problem with that. Hell, I’ll admit it. I used to pull the flag out of many bases through walls or through the floor. I did it because the game let me do it. When it stopped allowing me to do it, I stopped.”

    I get where you are coming from LM, but it still doesn’t sit right with me. Just because you can do something doesn’t mean it is right or in line with being a good sportsman. There is an ethical line that you have to draw.

    Cheating is still cheating even if a game lets you do something (until a patch comes along and fixes the issue). Grabbing/scoring a flag through the floor is cheating. It cheats the other team of a chance to stop you from scoring. Button glitches are in a gray area I agree, but I can tell you first hand that double shots cheat me out of a good game. It’s not about your aim, your tactics, your ability to move in the game environment, it’s about mashing a button that gives you an unfair advantage and produces an effect (instant kill/quick kill) that the game designers did not intend for you to do.

    That is not fair competition. It stinks.

  63. #LINK D0622 T1434
    Mercutio wrote...

    I must respectfully disagree with one of TTL Jericho’s points. Double shots, for me, are much harder to pull off than any normal shot. If I pull it off, I’m more proud of myself than I am if I do a normal 4-shot kill—because a successful double-shot is much harder to attain.

    Personally, I cannot pull off the double-shot timing every try. If I miss the perfect timing of RRX (it’s a difficult combination that requires perfect timing, not button mashing), then I’m reloading, and even with YY, I’m going to have a tough time getting out of the fight alive. Even if I succeed in RRX, landing the shots is difficult, because my thumb is off the aiming stick to press the X. Thus my opponent must either be running straight towards me, or straight away from me, or strafing exactly in the same direction I am for my shots to hit. RRX takes much more practice and control and timing than anything else I’ve tried in the game.

    The tactics of the double-shot are far more intricate than you may think. Using it can bring an advantage or a disadvantage, depending on whether you are successful or not. So timing is crucial. If someone is ahead in the 4-shot race, the double-shot is another equalizer (like the current melee and grenade). Remember the problems Bungie had at the beginning with balancing. Grenades and melees were weak, so whoever landed the first BR shot ruled the fight. Double-shotting is a counter, another level of depth, to the game.

    Watch the MLG pro players for further evidence. Every single top tier member can double-shot. Yet they don’t do it very often. Why? Because it’s difficult to do it successfully, and if you miss, you’re in a heap of stinky trouble.

    Realistically, as Overswarm said and someone already quoted, we cannot undiscover this glitch. Even in regards to pulling flags through walls and such, the only people keeping the game uneven and unfair are those who don’t learn how, and then complain when someone else does it. If I pull something through a wall, then the only way for you to even the playing field is to do the same. History is laden with wars where one side called “foul” because the other side changed the “rules.”

    So, basically, keep up, or lose your colonies.

    Still, my overall thoughts about Halo revolve around my first post. I don’t know how you can find fun in a game if you feel that someone who glitches is “cheating you out of a good game.” They practiced a lot to get that double-shot to work—give them a “good kill” and bash their faceplate in next time you see them. And, please, do it with a smile.

  64. #LINK D0622 T2326
    El Burritoh wrote...

    Concerning the comments of Jericho, Mercutio, and Lord M:

    I don’t think the code of the game is going to define cheating. Cheating is what happens when you break a rule. The game’s code simply isn’t going to set the rules for us anymore. Communities will have to do that themselves.
  65. #LINK D0626 T1318
    wayn0ka wrote...

    Glad to hear from Lord MDeath, I was wondering where you went!

    To comment on your post, which of course got my interest, in hockey (I’m Canadian…), it is within the rules to run into the goalkeeper – you suffer a short penalty. But it’s certainly seen as very poor sportsmanship.

    A better example was yesterday in the Netherlands/Portugal game. This is pros playing in the biggest event of their lives, where a loss sends you home. The game was out of control, to say the least. But the worst moment was when a Dutch player ignored one of the gentlemen’s rules of soccer. Portugal played the ball out of bounds because of an injured player. This gave the Dutch a throw-in. Now, by the rules of the game, the Dutch have possession and can do whatever they want – and they will do just about anything to win. But the overriding agreement in soccer is that if one team plays the ball out for an injury, the other team will give possession back on the throw in.

    Instead, in this case, the Dutch midfielder took the ball and started a run into the Portuguese half. The Portuguese players were flat-footed and shocked at the play. Finally, Deco ran back and made sure that he cut down the attacker. Because of this, Deco got booked, and eventually redcarded, and will miss the next round, which is a loss to every fan of soccer – he’s a brilliant footballer.

    Even at the highest level of the biggest sport on Earth, gentlemen’s rules exist that should not be broken. No matter how much the team wants to win. Professional soccer players respect the game and each other too much to do things that are technically within the rules of the game but are not sportsmanlike.

    I’m not taking a stand that button skilling is good or bad. I’m just suggesting to Lord MDeath and anyone else that XerxdeeJ is correct – there should be gentlemens agreements on what’s fair. No one should be willing to do whatever it takes to win. Then you’re a Hooligan – you’ve lost respect for the game and your opponent.

  66. #LINK D0626 T1439
    Lord Mdeath wrote...

    What’s up Way

    I agree with some of what you had to say. If, before the start of a game, I agreed to conduct myself in a certain manner or if there was a 100-year-old tradition that everyone observed, then I would not break my word and follow those unwritten rules. The difference is that these types of agreements are rarely made (I would imagine) in a typical MatchMade game of Halo 2. So there is a lot more gray area to play around in and I love gray. Especially dark gray.

  67. #LINK D0628 T1934
    AmazingAsian wrote...

    I am in the same clan as Shaumarai and BigpapiRick, and I never will use button combos or glitch or mod. It ruins the game. What do you have to prove if you cheat at a vgame?

    It is nice to win but did you earn the win?

  68. #LINK D0629 T1721
    Lord Mdeath wrote...

    Yes, I we do earn it and you Amazing, you earned you loss.

  69. #LINK D0630 T0835
    Jobyn wrote...

    Sure, there are no 100-year-old traditions, or codes of conduct that are to be agreed upon at the beginning of a match, but this online gaming stuff is new to the world. We are the people creating the codes that will eventually become tradition.

    If we decide now that the “Anything to win” code is acceptable, then that is the tradition that will follow. If we decide that we will play without glitches, then only the lowest of gamers will break the code.

    I am not suggesting that what we do today will affect the future of the world, but if the most vocal groups make a stand (and this is certainly a vocal group), then the silent masses will follow. We have the opportunity to step into the forefront of codes of conduct in gaming.

    We shouldn’t wait for the game’s maker to announce a glitch as a cheat, or wait for a patch. We should be the people who say that any gameplay outside of the intended should be considered unsportsman, and should be frowned upon.

    As I mentioned, with the feedback system coming on the 360, it is our duty to make and police the rules. It is time to start making these unwritten rules and enforcing them.

    I play (and try to live) by this:
    -I would not be embarassed by my behavior if my parents were watching.
    -I would not be disappointed if I found my child acting in this way.

    I feel that if I were to find my child using these glitches I would be disappointed, and feel that I have failed him in that I have taught him that winning is more important.

    I also feel, more importantly, that if I were glitching, and my father understood anything about video games, that he would be disappointed. To use a Gunslinger line (with modifications), I will not forget the face of my father.

  70. #LINK D0706 T1010
    Quikthnkr wrote...

    I can jump on top of the ring on Zanzibar… without using a superjump. I can beat someone down who is BxB’ing me by quikly moving in circles around them. I report superjumpers for cheating. My feeling on all this stuff is simple. Balance is a key to enjoying any game. Take chess for example. Would anyone bother playing chess if your opponent could take 2 turns for every one you took? Or if their Knights could move 5 paces in any direction with a simple button glitch?

    Some people like to argue that this adds depth to the game. And I agree that it does. But only if everyone can do what they are doing. If every super jump was accessible to every player, if every button glitch was a given in game play, then it would be acceptable.

    But the truth that these “depth” people don’t like to admit is that these glitches give an advantage to their user almost exclusively because the majority of players do not, or can not perform them. And they can argue until they are blue in the face that anyone can learn these things because although with massive time and practive invested that may be true, not all of us have the massive amounts of time to invest.

    If everyone could move their pieces twice in a row, or move their knights five paces in any direction in chess then that would be fair and would add depth to the game. It wouldn’t be chess anymore, it would be something else but it would be fair.

    Bungie has a game way more complicated than chess. And in light of connectivity issues that already make the game inherently unbalanced to a certain degree they really have a challenge on their hands balancing the game to make it fun for everyone.

    I am sure when they made the game they considered it reasonable that players would find places to jump to that they hadn’t considered originally. That is all a part of a user taking ownership of a product. But I seriously doubt they considered a flaw in the Havoc physics system that allow you to jump to places they never expected folks to get to, or undiscovered coding bugs to melee someone twice as fast as designed to complicate their already so delicate balance.

    This is a slippery slope. One could argue that crouch jumping is glitching, or slide jumping.

    I like to follow the reality within the universe test. Master Chief could on the right surface within the Halo universe slide off of a jump. MC could in the HU crouch jump. Heck I can do that in the real universe. MC could not land in a certain spot after shoehorning himself under a ledge and launch himself 2 football fields high in the sky. MC could not reload his weapon (in the case of RRX animation cancel) without physically loading his weapon. MC Could not recover so quickly from a massive melee to draw his weapon for a 1 shot kill to the head (BXR animation cancel) or recover from a melee so fast as to deliver another with no windup (BXB Animation cancel). None of these things are supposed to be possible and although I love that they are in the game because they allow us to explore the worlds Bungie created in more detail (in custom games) that doesn’t change the fact that they are not useful to keeping the game balanced.

    It is cheap and it is cheating, of that there is obviously no doubt in light of Ninja on Fire’s comments.

  71. #LINK D0706 T1021
    Quikthnkr wrote...

    Oh and just for the record, when the people who make/officiate the game say it is cheating at what point do you decide that their opinion is not ruling? I hear these glitchers say that they aren’t cheating because they aren’t manipulating the network all the time. This is like saying, in a football game, “yes I facemasked the guy, but I didn’t pull out a bazooka and blow his guts all over the field; I wasn’t cheating.”

    Just because there are some acknowledged levels of severety in cheating does not mean that you aren’t still cheating. Just because you tell a little white lie does not mean you aren’t lying and just because you superjumped on top of Lockout with the sniper rifle rather than pressing your stand by button does not mean you aren’t cheating. Sheesh!

  72. #LINK D0706 T1023
    zink wrote...

    Poor sportsmanship? Everybody can do BXR, BXB, RRX, YY reload. I think it adds more skill to the game, actually. And since everyone can do it, it’s fair. Players that have trouble with it, might not be able to keep up with the pros, which, IMO, is a good thing.

    To the first comments, the players that can’t use them, well, no offense to anybody, generally aren’t that good. They deserve to lose. It’s NOT cheating. The bad players still have a chance to learn, hell, maybe they’ll learn something new and get better if you use it on them. I don’t understand how you can say it’s unbalanced, in fact, if you took it out, IMO, it would make the game unbalanced in certain situations. They ARE useful to keep the game balanced.

    It CANNOT be cheating, it’s freakin’ built in to the game, everyone can do it.

    Super-bouncing is different, depending on where the two teams spawn, it can make it un-fair.

  73. #LINK D0706 T1148
    Jobyn wrote...

    Button glitches are certainly NOT built into the game. For lack of a better word, they are mistakes in the game’s coding. Just because they require no outside hardware (like a standby button, or mods) doesn’t mean that it was meant to be there.

    And…this isn’t about keeping up with the pros, this is about balance and sportmanship.

  74. #LINK D0706 T1451
    Adam the one wrote...

    “you’re all a bunch of poopy heads”

  75. #LINK D0707 T0156
    Fezzer wrote...

    Way to many comments to read them all…
    I haven’t bothered learning any of the button mashing combos except BXB and BXR. BXR I’ve never used in actual gameplay because it’s to easy to miss and it leaves you wide open to be killed if you do. BXB, however, I use constantly. It has really improved my survival rate in close combat battles.

    As a TTL Gunslinger, I must go with my Clan on their viewpoints against using the glitches in regular gameplay. However, I will use it if it’s used against me in MM. Call that unethical and hypocritical if you please and if it makes you feel better.

    If I end up in a “Gentlemens/Gentleladies” match an I accidentally use it, then I cry pardon for my misdeeds. Such and effective “tatic” is hard to unlearn. It’s like not throwing a grenade at someone if you know it can kill them.

    Tough debate with hardheld opinions. Ninja on Fire’s recent comments really opened a can of worms. Until Bungie makes an official response to all this, I think it will sit solidly on the fence of cheating/fairness in H2 land.

  76. #LINK D1002 T2346
    Quantifier wrote...

    I go by (and agree with) what Bungie has said about button combos (BXR, RRX, etc.) and superbouncing – they are ALL considered cheating. While one can applaud him/herself or those who have mastered the button combos and try to justify their skill in doing so, it wasn’t intended by Bungie, and that’s the bottom line. It’s too bad Bungie doesn’t patch for them, and its also too bad MLG has allowed the buttom combos. I guess, though Bungie has stated their official position, they are in effect allowing everyone to make their own decisions.

  77. #LINK D0729 T1514
    GFU 6oodBye wrote...

    sorry wasnt here for the first hundred posts but as i read i couldnt help but address the person who said it wasnt “fair” to be killed by a sword up close. He has to be freakin kidding me, thats the point of the sword, so he’s saying instead of balancing weapons with range that bungie purposly made a “super weapon” i.e. the battle rifle. If you have the br you have no reason on running toward an opponent anyways so next time sum 1 has a sword and you a br either destroy him with head shots while running backwards or just stick him and stop being a punk. And not just bxr they are all a losers way of winning. Because i for 1 am tired of getting the first shot in on an unsuspecting opponent with a br only to have a double shot used against me to insure his own victory, this is why i stopped playing halo for over a year.

  78. #LINK D0729 T1516
    GFU 6oodBye wrote...

    can i get an amen

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